What was offensive about the "ladies lingerie department" joke, and how can I avoid offending people in a similar way? [closed]

Question

Moderator note: A follow-on question about how to avoid the behavior described here has been posted.

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In recent news, two academics are at odds over this incident full article here:

The fuss started when [Prof. X] and [Prof. Y] ended up in the same crowded elevator during a conference at a Hilton in San Francisco last month. [Prof. Y] said she offered to press the floor buttons for people in the elevator, whom she described as mostly conference attendees and all, except one other woman, white middle-aged men. Instead of saying a floor, [Prof. X] smiled and asked for the women’s lingerie department "and all his buddies laughed," [Prof. Y] wrote in a complaint, the details of which he disputed, to the association later that day.

This incident has escalated to the point that the academic organization that organized the conference has decided to sanction Prof. X.

I don't understand why the joke was funny, but that's not really important. I would like to understand why it was offensive. Specifically, I'm wondering

• In what way was this comment offensive?

The bullets above are not rhetorical or sarcastic; I am completely sincere. I am worried because I don't understand precisely what was offensive, so I fear that I might do something similar. I have wondered whether the remark was offensive because:

• It referred to underwear
• It referred to women (in any way) and was cause for laughter
• There is some unstated assumption about his reason for supposedly going to a lingerie department

But I really have no idea, and I want to understand. I could not find an answer in any of the news pieces on this incident.

I realize that this question might get closed as off-topic. However, I think it is wrong to assume that no part of this is specific to academic culture (if that's the case, that's part of the answer). Certainly it occurred in a uniquely academic environment, and is a dispute between academics and an academic society, that seems to jeopardize at least one academic career.

Please refrain from using this as a place to express your opinion on who is right in this dispute. That's not what I'm asking.

Answer 1

tl;dr: The joke was funny because it was absurd and taboo (made people uncomfortable). It was "offensive" because it may have been intended to make the person operating the elevator feel embarrassed or singled-out. Avoid making jokes that make people feel singled-out.

How is the joke funny?

As other answers have pointed out, the joke is funny because it makes reference to a time when elevator operators were the norm and people would call out the desired floor in a department store by asking for a specific department. It is an absurd (out-of-place) comment to make in the context (the present day, and not in a department store). Often, absurdity is funny.

There is, however, another layer to the humour. People will often laugh when in an uncomfortable situation. The joke is uncomfortable because of the floor that was asked for: ladies lingerie. In some cultures (I can say Canada and the UK for sure) the topic of undergarments, especially ladies undergarments, is taboo and therefore not supposed to be discussed in "polite society".

In what way was the comment offensive?

I think other answers are close, but slightly miss the mark. The reason I think the joke is offensive is because, whether it was intended or not, it made the person operating the elevator uncomfortable or embarrassed. On a more subtle note the reason is context.

The person operating the elevator may have felt like they were targeted by the joke. They asked an innocent question "What floor?" and the joker replies with the less-than-innocent answer "Ladies lingerie". We can only speculate as to the intentions of the joker, but it is clear that while the joke may have been directed to everyone in the elevator, the answer was directed to the person operating the elevator. Add the fact that the person operating the elevator was a woman, and it doesn't seem so far-fetched to think that she may have felt targeted by the joke.

To further consider this point: why was the department "ladies lingerie" chosen? The joker could have asked for "the hardware department" or "men's clothing" or "sporting goods" and the joke would have drawn a few chuckles. "Ladies lingerie" was chosen because it is taboo, and it is extra taboo because it is a man directing the comment at a woman. More discomfort = more likely to provoke laughs (even though the people in the elevator might feel more uncomfortable than tickled).

Finally, consider the context: a male dominated space. I can say from personal experience (as a man) that it is not uncommon for a group of men to direct lewd or taboo comments at women (or sometimes a young/innocent-seeming man) to provoke embarrassment. Heck, I'm guilty of doing it myself, before I realized how it makes the target of the joke feel! It is likely that the person operating the elevator experienced this sort of behaviour many times before and assumed (perhaps rightly) that the joke was targeted at her and was intended to make her feel embarrassed.

Making someone feel embarrassed for your personal entertainment = bullying. Bullying should not be tolerated, especially in a professional setting.

If it was an elevator full of women and a woman made the joke, the context would be different and the person operating the elevator may not have felt singled-out. Similarly if it was entirely men. However, even in these contexts it is possible for the joke to be construed as bullying, especially if the target of the joke is someone that the joker knows would feel embarrassed.

How do I avoid offending people in a similar way?

Avoid jokes involving topics that make people uncomfortable, especially when telling jokes to strangers or acquaintances. Generally avoid taboo topics of whatever culture you are in and especially avoid jokes that might make someone feel targeted or singled-out based on race, skin colour, sexuality, gender, etc.

Answer 2

@Najib Idrissi gave a very good answer, but I think there is one more key element to this situation, and that is the typical dimensions of a lift.

Lifts are small, people have to stand close together. This makes some people a little nervous about the possibility that someone else might take it as an opportunity to invade their personal space or touch them inappropriately. In a lift, such an act could be passed off as unintentional, because people were standing close already. Just like the problems with people getting groped on packed trains.

So in this situation, it is only kind to behave in as reassuring a manner as possible. This will reduce the fear people feel because of how close they have to stand.

As such, even if this joke had not been specifically about women’s sexuality, and just about sexuality in general, it was the wrong moment to tell it.

To tell a sex related joke is always a bit of a gamble, but if the person you are talking to is comfortable around you, it might be fine. The trick is to know if they are comfortable at that moment. In a crowded lift they are more likely to be a little uncomfortable. In a male dominated environment this is more likely to be a problem for women, but it could apply to anyone.

The long and short of it is don't tell sex jokes unless you are confident that they are not misogynistic (in context this one was), and confident that that the other person is comfortable around you.

Answer 3

I think the main reason why this joke gave offense has already been covered in Najib Idrissi's answer, i.e. the lingerie/sex-object angle, but there's another aspect to it:

When [Prof. X] was young, in the 1950s, he said, it was a "standard gag line" to ask the elevator operator for the hardware or lingerie floor as though one were in a department store.

Elevator operators are almost entirely obsolete now, but back in that era, many hotels, stores, and office buildings had an employee whose job was to work the elevators for guests. It was a junior role, similar to a valet or a store greeter.

So part of the "joke" here is that Prof. X is talking to Prof. Y, his professional peer, as if she was a junior hotel employee - an occupation which carries much less status than "professor".

Women in academia have had a long struggle to be treated with the same respect as their male peers, and there's still a long way to go. (One example of many). Because of that situation, it's a bad idea for a male academic to make jokes which rely on reducing the social status of his female peer; this amplifies the "merely sex objects" aspect of the joke that Najib Idrissi discussed.

A lot of comedians invoke the rule "Never punch down" - in other words, don't make fun of people or groups whose social standing is lower, or less secure, than your own.

Answer 4

The remark is offensive because it implies that women are merely sex objects, only good for leering at while scantily clad. I implies that the women attending academic conferences are not real academics, but are only there for show. We are talking about a professor, a respected scholar who is an expert in her field. The other professor only appears to see her as an object, a servant to dress up in lingerie, not his equal. This is degrading and offensive.

If you want to avoid this kind of "fuss", talk to women (and everyone, really) as if they were human beings and your peers, rather than objects, especially in a professional context.

If you want to understand why the professor violated the code of conduct (and I think it's sad that it needs to be spelled out), you can read it here, in particular:

4) Nonetheless, the ISA recognizes its duty to ensure that members and participants are not bullied and/or harassed. It further recognizes that this duty is of wider application and includes all members and participants, regardless of status or the period of time. [...]

b) Harassment may be defined as, but is not limited to:
i) Unwanted conduct affecting the dignity of people or individuals. It may be related to age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientati on, race, disability, religion, nationality, citizenship or any personal characteristic of the individual, and may be persistent or isolated. The key is that the actions or comments are experienced as demeaning and unacceptable by the recipient. [...]

Answer 5

In what way was this comment offensive?

Here is a quote from the professor in question:

"Ladies’ lingerie” is an old joke dating back to the days of manually operated elevators, when lift operators in department stores would yell out: “What floor?”. I meant no harm by my joke – a version of which even pops up in the Harry Potter books. Indeed, it was meant to be an attempt to make light of the mundane, boring process of being stuck in a lift. And why must such a comment have sexual or offensive connotations?

So it seems the joke was only offensive to those who didn't get it. They hear the word 'lingerie' in association with a woman, and assume it's somehow a sexist or dehumanizing joke, when it wasn't intended that way at all. The joke would have been the same if it had been a man pushing the buttons.

(Edit: the joke here is that the request can't be fulfilled at a hotel, but would be reasonable in a similar context. It'd be like getting into a race car and telling the driver "Airport Hilton, please". It's not sexual or sexist in any way.)

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What are examples of other comments that might be offensive in a similar way? How can I avoid offending people in a similar way?

It's possible for someone to misconstrue literally anything you say as offensive, so there no way to completely avoid these sort of situations.

However, when people are offended, they give off obvious non-verbal cues. If someone gets offended due to misinterpreting something you've said, the best thing you can do is apologize and explain to them what you meant.

Answer 6

First, to explain why the "joke" is "funny" (inverted commas because I don't find it funny, and I suspect many others don't either). Thanks to Flater and knzhou for explaining this.

During the time of manually-operated elevators, there were so-called "elevator operators" who would ask passengers where they were going. A possible answer for example could be "second floor". In those days, departmental stores were also organized by departments that could take up an entire floor. To say "take me to the ladies' lingerie department" is equivalent to saying "take me to whichever floor sells ladies' lingerie". The joke is that the speaker, as a man, is not expected to want to buy ladies' lingerie. The same joke would work with a female speaker asking to be brought to the men's lingerie department.

The joke is offensive because the listener didn't understand it. Since some people laughed, the listener knows it's a joke. However she didn't know why it's funny - not surprising, from the comments many don't either. Still, since 1) women and 2) lingerie were mentioned, she assumes that it's a sexual joke. That immediately makes it offensive.

Here're a couple of other situations which were interpreted badly: when a man invited a woman to coffee in an elevator, and a joke about dongles and forking at a technology conference. You can easily find more using Google for terms such as "humor in different cultures".

As to the question of how to avoid it: unless among friends, avoid making jokes entirely because humor translates poorly across cultures. This is the same reason that one should avoid injecting humor into e.g. a conference presentation. As you can probably imagine, the hassle that Prof. X is going through is not worth the laughs he got.

Answer 7

Well, there was no offense intended, and initially, I didn't see how she was offended. You also can't please everyone, so it's hard to avoid offense unless you carefully curate your jokes?

The offense was taken, and I'm saying it was an over reaction, unless given other context, as it was just a topical joke, I think. I'd say "ladies lingerie" was the first floor type that came to mind, given the circumstances, and on-the-spot jokes need people to be quick on their feet.

And I'm also thinking that the joke was probably the best one that could be given. Any other options wouldn't have been enough of a non-sequitur to be as funny, possibly offered even more offense.

An alternate floor, like "Housewares", for example, might have brought to mind "Stay In The Kitchen" attitudes.

The situation is sort of like a rapid fire answer test, think Word Association and Rorschach testing?

Unless you can find something at least as odd as women's lingerie for a man to publicly state he wants, the joke falls apart.

The woman took offense because she didn't get the joke, I assume. A fault on her, instead of the speaker, due to a lack of historical knowledge.

While it might not be reasonable to expect that knowledge, I find her offense unreasonable, as I didn't immediately find a reason to take offense, unless the core of the complaint is that such a joke doesn't fit the academic setting... But, it's an elevator joke, in an elevator. I love how the situation fits, from a jokester's perspective? ... I might even say she fed him that straight line, but she didn't know it.

On having read some other answers and other commentary on the situation, I find the possible types of offense caused by the joke to be... loosely connected, I think is the right phrase? Although, there is enough connection, to find it as the first associations to come to mind, in someone unfamiliar with the joke?

If I were confronted, I'd ask for an explanation for the offense and defend the joke, but that might not be the best option for you.