Is it achievable to perform a doctorate while working in a private company (not in college) full time (8 hours per day, 5 days per week)? Or is it too much work or stress?
Each situation is different, and it might be hard to generalise, but roughly speaking, you can see a PhD thesis as requiring about 3-4 years working full time. For some people it might be a bit less, for others a bit more, but that's a good average. In addition, a PhD includes of course "technical" work, but also "academic training", such as learning how to write a paper/thesis, presenting papers at conferences, supervising students, etc.
Now, two cases are possible: either you already have some technical material from past work (e.g., you've been working 20 years in industry), in which case you have already completed some of the 3-4 years, and you mostly need to focus on how to output your work; or you don't, in which case, you still need to complete all of the work.
I've known some people in the first case, and they managed to do a PhD while working full-time. They would usually come in half a day per week (in agreement with their company), and work at home in the evening. In the second case, it seems unrealistic to do both a full time job and a full time PhD. In some fields, you might be able to do a PhD over 7, 8 or even more years (I've heard about someone in history who wrote his PhD in 7 years, while working full time as a school teacher in the mean time), but it might not be the case everywhere.
In addition to Daniel's answer, and including Sylvain's comment, I'd add that some French universities forbid starting a PhD without having some source of income, either through some funding or through a full-time job. Most funding forbid to have a full time job on the side, and if your full-time job is completely unrelated to your PhD topic, then you might have the green light from the administration, but not from the academic institution in charge of the PhD programs.
EDIT: I somehow forgot to mention that the indicated amount time in my answer concerns good PhD, and by good, I mean a PhD that will allow you to get a job in academia afterwards, which mean not only getting the degree, but also getting good publications, good collaborations, good reference letters, etc. If you only care about the title, then you might find some universities happy to make you pay tuition fees to deliver you a diploma after a few years. If you want to go to academia later, then you need to be a junior researcher for a few years, in order to demonstrate that you might be worth hiring as a confirmed researched, and then later as a senior researcher.
I am doing that right now. I have a full time job and am working on a PhD in Computer Science. It is definitely possible, but has been the hardest experience of my life. I am past the hardest part and am wrapping up my first publication. I've also been at it for 3 years (already had my masters degree), so it's taken me much longer to get to this point than it would be for a full time student.
It has been extremely stressful and you can kiss your life outside of work+school goodbye. You will also need to be very good with time management and be aware that over the course of several years, there will be life events that pull you away from school.
When I was deciding whether or not to do it, I vastly underestimated the amount of time and energy required. I'm very glad I stuck with it so far, but I have to say, if I had an accurate picture of the workload I probably would have opted against it.
You need a huge amount of dedication to the goal in order to pull this off. If you have only a casual interest in the degree, then you will probably fail. I think I remember somewhere that the graduation rate for PhD's is around 50/50. Add a full time job on that and the odds are against you. But it is absolutely possible to overcome that with enough effort.
Doing a PhD is a full-time job that requires vast amounts of commitment in terms of mental effort and time. If the PhD research comes in number two position, then the results will never be very good. Also, not being available in the department to interact with your colleagues and supervisor will severely reduce the benefits you gain from the experience. Even if you finished the PhD, it may not be really worth anything, because you won't have been able to fully commit to doing it well.
On the other hand, you may have staggering genius and be ridiculously productive and have a fountain of energy, and then it should be doable.
The big question here is what you mean by "completing a PhD". At one extreme, there's completing a minimal PhD: choosing the least demanding school that offers a PhD in your field, finding a flexible advisor, and doing only what is absolutely required to get the degree. This could be worth doing in certain circumstances: to develop greater expertise in a personal interest, or for certain sorts of career benefits. (For example, in the U.S. high school teachers with doctorates often receive extra pay, but they are not expected to do any research or really make use of the degree, so there is no need to write an outstanding dissertation.) Completing a minimal PhD can certainly be done while working full time in an unrelated job, if you are very diligent. That's a big if, though. The danger of working full time is that you won't make progress without constant effort. If you slack off or become distracted from your dissertation, nobody will complain since it's not your real job, and you can easily let months or years go by with very little progress. This is a common pattern, with an enthusiastic start that gradually trails off and never actually leads to a completed dissertation.
At the other extreme, you might aim to become a well-known researcher and have an academic career at a top university or industrial research lab. This requires doing far more than the minimal requirements, which is almost impossible while spending 40 hours per week on something else, since you'll be competing against people who are similarly talented and hard working but have an extra 2000 hours per year. It's possible in principle, if you are really exceptional, but most people will just find it too difficult to catch up. For example, imagine a competitor who spends 60 hours per week for 5 years on a PhD. If you can spend only 20 hours after work, it will take you 15 years to put in the same number of hours. Even if you do this, you won't really be in as good a position, since many of your hours will have been spent 10-15 years ago and won't reflect recent research trends. The only way to catch up is to work harder or more efficiently than your competition, and that's difficult if you are competing against the smartest, most diligent people in your field.
Most paths lie somewhere between these extremes, but generally closer to the second case (since all academic or research jobs are very competitive). I would not recommend holding a full-time job while working on a PhD unless you have very modest goals for what you intend to do with the PhD.
The universities that I am familiar with in the US and UK have regulations about the number of hours that can be worked for full time students. These rules would prevent you from being both a full time PhD student and having a full time job.
For example, the UPenn Psychology policy states:
The Department expects full time effort in return for its support during the five years of the program. Thus, students may not engage in outside employment while on departmental support.
and the MIT policy states:
The student interested in working part time off campus, and who is a US citizen or permanent resident, should first speak to his or her research advisor about the nature of the proposed work. The advisor must be assured that the work will not compromise the time that the student is expected to devote to research at MIT, and that the outside work does not compromise or infringe upon patent or intellectual property rights related to the student’s MIT research. The student also must ensure that the outside work does not violate any departmental policy.
There are many universities that take part time PhD students and expect them to be working full time. So yes, one can get a PhD while working full time, but as for the second part of the question
It can be too much work, stress, etc.?
Not only can it be, it likely will be. This is equally true for both full time students without family commitments and part time students with other work and family commitments.
I have done it and do not recommend it. While I did not require an extension of the time required, working a full-time job will generally prevent you from travelling to conferences and from establishing contacts essential for success. You are more likely to end up in a backwater than a vital research area. You become less identified with your research than with your work, which in my case is involves specializations often considered necessary within academia and which are remunerated well outside of academia, but which have low academic value themselves. It has been a struggle changing this perceived identification--I might as well attempt to retrain Pavlov's dogs.
Consider yourself fortunate to have access to academia.stackexchange.com. My relatives were unaware of the commitments involved and provided well-meaning but uninformed advice ("you're smart enough"), not recognizing that scheduling has to be considered independently of ability, effort and experience [see Decio Coviello, Andrea Ichino and Nicola Persico. Don't Spread Yourself Too Thin: The Impact of Task Juggling on Workers' Speed of Job Completion NBER Working Paper No. 16502]. Employers often don't recognize or choose not to recognize the independence of these factors either, so I cannot blame my relatives for bad advice. Most of all I blame myself. I am not proud of the outcome. I had published a paper in the beginning in graduate school, but left the field. It was a mistake not to build on early successes, but the distractions of full-time work made it difficult to absorb the right lessons at the right time.
I was able to complete my PhD while working full time as a consultant. Based on that experience ...
Have a mentor that's done it, preferably one at the school you're thinking about attending. A lot of the 'for profits' have very interesting models for keeping students on track. For me, it was someone who remains an important mentor in my life. Prior to applying, I spoke with her and she mentioned she earned her PhD while working full time as a consultant and then provided some sound advice and encouragement.
Some programs do a better job then others at scheduling graduate level courses so they don't conflict with normal working hours. You might have better luck with a metropolitan university or one that accommodates non-traditional learners.
There is a trade off related to there only being 24 hours in a day. The university experience includes many talks and presentations that enrich all scholars, whether or not the scholarship being presented relates to your area of expertise. The more flexibility you can find in your work schedule to take advantage of these unique opportunities the better you'll be for it.
Plan 2-3 hours out of class for every hour in class except during final project time. Then, plan lots more. Also, the academic calendar and many industry calendars are tied in subtle manners. The client wanting a project completed before everyone goes on varying summer breaks means extra work during final project time for classes.
Have a fairly good idea of what you want to study and/or who you would like to study with sooner rather then later. Find out which professors are able to graduate their students in a timely manner. A lot of time can be spent trying to figure out what you want to write about, and that is time that could be spent either writing or working towards the end goal of graduation with PhD and job still intact.
Have a detailed plan/schedule for your day once you transition from classwork to dissertation work. Practice the plan the last semester you're taking classes. Stick to the plan, even when the alarm goes off at 4am and you were up until 2 taking care of something else.
Some might be luckier, but for me, for both my master's thesis and my PhD dissertation, I had to scale my work hours way back - 6 months for Masters and 12 months for PhD - to be able to produce work at the level I was demanding of myself. This is something that needs to be planned for re material needs.
If you have responsibilities to others (spouse, parents, significant others, kids, some combination of) make sure they're on board as well. I am grateful for the 2 am bottles fed to children as I read through thousands of lines of code because I was up anyway. I'm also forever grateful to my teachers and committee members who understood the work-school-life balance issues and worked with me to be as helpful as was fair.
Finally, know there are a lot of us that viewed earning a PhD as an important milestone in the senior part of our careers. For me, it led to a teaching position in a regional public university that was more rewarding and fun then I had imagined. Hang in there, take it a day at a time, and enjoy what you're learning. Best of luck!
I'm doing it now. The big issue for me was learning how to balance school work with the rest of my life. That's something that needs some thought prior to beginning your program.
Make sure your significant other is TRULY onboard. School takes a lot of time, and resentment can build, if otherwise.
Know how much you can take. I was taking two courses a semester in order to satisfy a university requirement. It was killing me. I'm only taking one course a semester now, but I'm much happier than I was.
Understand how long your coursework stays valid. Coursework only lasts for several years, so plan accordingly.
Make sure your faculty will give you the attention that a full-time student receives. In some programs, part-timers are second-class citizens. Not good.
Try and graduate prior to the fall semester. Appointments usually begin at the beginning of the fall (winter) term. Don't want to wait too long for a position to show up.
During the first year of my doctoral studies I had no departmental support and kept myself indoors and fed by working about 2.5 part-time jobs.
Put bluntly that situation was not sustainable: it was physically wearing me down notwithstanding that I did nothing but work, study, eat and sleep.
Moreover, later in my studies I needed to devote more time to school than I did that first year. Perhaps there are exceptional individuals that could manage it, but if you are merely smart and productive you should not count on managing.
That's possible in some fields, impossible in others
I am in TCS, and I know of several high school teachers who obtained a PhD in TCS after a few years. Basically, they were able to work 1 full day on week-end for their research + a few hours during the week. Of course they needed more than 3 years to graduate, but this is possible.
My wife is in history/archeology, and many (more than half of them) PhD students work full-time in library or other places since there are very few fundings. We have friends who graduated after 10 years. In this field it is difficult for those who work full-time in a place unrelated to their studies since access to old sources is needed for doing research. Most of these students took their holidays to go to libraries/museums/field archeology places in foreign countries.
I have relatives in plant biology and in animal biology. It is impossible to complete a PhD in these fields without working full time in a lab. Indeed, most of the time is spent in doing heavy experiments, with living things, which means being available when needed.
Definitely possible, with a bit of planning and scheduling.
I am in the field of atmospheric physics - my research involved a considerable amount of experimental work and field studies, my timetable and deadlines have been and still is (as I am just completing the research) largely based on a full time equivalent. My full time job is, for the most part, unrelated (high school teaching). I know it has worked, because I am finishing my PhD and have been published multiple times before schedule (2.5 years).
What I have found is that I had to have an 'adaptable' schedule, as things changed week by week. My tasks were broken into
- long term, or semester goals, these were decided at the beginning of each semester.
- weekly goals, the smaller steps that make up the long term goals.
Making contingency plans for the weekly goals is beneficial, for if something goes wrong, there is always a backup.
Make absolutely certain your supervisors/advisors fully understand what your duties are in your paid job and what time requirements are needed. Also, what I found worked was making my workplace aware of the study commitments.
What may sound counterintuitive is to give yourself regular study-breaks - once again, be adaptable in this.
It is possible, as this is how I did my PhD - but it really depends on what subject area you do.
I had a fulltime job (and a part time one as well) - so was working for a combined 44 hours a week. I can say, looking back, it is very hard work, but can be very rewarding.
I would do my work and set aside 3 nights per week (when I wasn't working the 2nd job) for about 3-6 hours in the evening. Also, by the nature of my PhD, I worked on it over the weekend (usually between 25-40 hours a week).
A few things I found helped - A genuine and in-depth love for the subject is extremely important.
Other things that workd for me were:
- Making weekly goals
- Making both my workplace and university adviser aware of what I was doing (I was fortunate that both were supportive).
- Giving myself some time off (every 4th weekend, I did something else).
- Communication when things started to get on top of me.
- Maintaining adequate sleeping, eating and exercise patterns.
- Making time for friends and family - even had a regular poker and chess night.
Also, I coincided some of my leave requests with conferences and meetings with the advisor at the lab (not all the leave time though).
An added bonus are transferable skills gained from the research that can benefit your job, and vice versa - examples can include: time and resource management, research skills etc
My stress levels weren't particularly high at all - but that, of course, won't be the case with everyone.
Possible: yes - I personally know two persons who did it. The question is if YOU can do it, not if its possible. If you want to finish your PhD, I'm sure you will somehow get the time to finish. But if you are doing your PhD just to get the title, then you will probably not finish it.
Edit: After 7 years, the last 4.5 of them working full a full time job and raising 4 kids, I managed to finish my PhD. So yes, it's possible :-)
That heavily depends on your PhD mode, if you have to attend classes it would almost impossible, if your PhD just a research then that will be between you and your supervisor unless the university is hiring you as a full-time researcher, I am working on my M.Sc. the first year I had to attend classes and it was impossible to find job, even my part-time job at the time was hard to handle, however, once I've started my research phase recently, I could find a full-time job which I'm starting tomorrow.
Yes it is possible. Just passed my Viva in the last week after submitting at the end of September. I found that in the lead into submitting that I was almost full-time working on the thesis. This may just the way it is or down to my poor time management in the build up. If possible store up your holiday days to use for this final write up period. In the last month I was probably working a day and a half and doing my thesis write up ever other waking hour.
I would hope that it is not impossible as currently I am in the third year of my part-time PhD and hope to complete it.
Some background info:
- I work full-time 5 days a week (9 to 5)
- PhD is in History (completely unrelated to my work)
- PhD is self funded
A number of factors need to be considered for what I think you'll need to be sucessful in obtaining a PhD.
- Time Management. You will need to have a fairly regimented time plan that you can stick to so as to ensure a steady workflow. Just to sum up my weekly time spent on my PhD (and this can always vary depending on other commitments.) About 4 nights a week 6pm to about 10.30pm, Saturday 11am to about 10pm and Sunday about 1pm to 7.30pm.
- Regular meeting with your supervisor. In my own experience about once every 4-5 weeks is enough. A good hour meeting can really refocus your work and every 4-5 weeks means you don't go to long procrastinating or mulling over an idea. Also in this time frame would also have sent a couple of emails. Also I work in a family business so this also gives me the flexibility to be able to arrange meetings with my Supervisor at working hours times.
- Get writing as early as possible. In my first year I had got down about 15,000 words of a draft thesis. Now at the end of the day I may half of that in the final thesis it is a good habit to get into. Set yourself weekly, monthly targets. Sometimes you might get sidetracked, like if you have to prepare a conference paper etc but writing early and often can keep you motivated.
- Be prepared to make sacrifices. For example my last 4 holidays were either solely for research or a mix of holidays and research. (I shouldn't complain too much as I was able to go abroad for these trips.) Also though you are probable going to see less of family etc.
- But also be prepared to take some time off. Don't feel guilty if you go for a night out with friends or take a weekend away from it all. Sometimes you will come back to your PhD work rejuvenated from the time off.
- Don't underestimate the support of your family, friends and colleagues. Most people will want you to succeed and will give you much moral and practical support along the way.
Is it too much work and stress?
It is definably a lot of work, but I would like to think so far it is not to much work. Be aware that your university will possibly have many support structures in place for PhD students. Every year my university run workshops on time management, dealing with stress, how to write a thesis etc. Personally I don't think the stress would be any more than say working 2 jobs but that said I think everyone deals with stress differently.
It is possible. But the actual benefit you get from your PhD program is correlated with time spent.
A PhD is not only a title. In the process of obtaining a PhD, you get opportunities for studying a particular topic in-depth, establishing yourself as a member of a particular community of scholars (e.g. by publishing in certain journals or going to certain conferences), acquiring ancillary know-how relevant for an academic professional, etc.
You might complete a PhD program and earn the title, without gaining these other qualifications. And that may be good for you. But when it comes to, for example, landing an academic job, you may be competing with people who have invested more in their development as academic professionals.
This will depend on your program and the policies associated with it. At least where I go for undergraduate studies, it is not allowed because being a PhD student is a full time job and having two full time jobs concurrently would make your life a living hell.
But, there are exceptions. There is this one student who was literally the smartest human being I've seen, who came for undergrad, finishing a double major in only two years, then went straight to being a Computer Engineering PhD student at the same school. He's so madman smart to the point that the department granted him an extension, allowing him to work a full-time job at a local software company in addition to pursuing his PhD because he's so bright even for a PhD student.
Unless you are that type of madman smart, I would take the peanuts style of living for the sake of preserving sanity. But maybe you might be that type of exceptional.