While I was a TA for an undergraduate CS course, I built up a good teaching relationship with a student who was struggling. By the end of the course, she had turned things around and was performing much better.

We hadn't spoken since I was her teacher until she reached out to me about a graduate student TA in a later course who told her that she was so bad that she should just leave the major entirely. His comments seem to have damaged her self-confidence and she chose to talk to me, rather than to the faculty. I'm not at the university anymore, but I remain personal friends with that student's adviser.

Is this generally acceptable conduct for graduate students? Should I let the professor know? I think it isn't really the place of a first-year graduate student to give such unsolicited "advice," especially in such absolute terms at a time when the department has made it a stated goal to be more inclusive to women and underrepresented minorities. For context, the TA is a man.

  • Is this an ongoing or completed course? If it's the former I would not mention it to the professor in question without the student's consent.
    – Anyon
    Commented Jun 21, 2018 at 17:28
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    First my compliments for the relationship you have built with here. She trusts you. All universities have a confident (not sure this is the correct translation; a person you can speak to in absolute trust). You could consider guiding her in that direction. Such person can assist in follow-up actions.
    – user93911
    Commented Jun 22, 2018 at 5:43
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    @Alice - Do you mean someone like the ombuds? I'm not sure I've heard of an official "confidante" before.
    – ArnoldF
    Commented Jun 22, 2018 at 15:51
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    When I became a grad assistant, the training I had alongside TAs started with "be supportive, and whatever you do, don't tell a student they don't belong in this major". Apparently one of the former (male) TAs had told a female student she shouldn't be in CS, and he got into some hot water (I don't know if sexism played a part, but it certainly was suspected). I'm still mystified that an instructor would say such a thing to a student. Commented Jun 22, 2018 at 17:22
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    What did the TA tell the undergrad? For example, did they say something like "if you've been struggling and aren't enjoying this major, maybe you should try another?"? Or did they say something like "you're horrible, just give up now!"?
    – Nat
    Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 11:34

8 Answers 8


Is this generally acceptable conduct for graduate students?

I think you know it's not. To tell someone that they are so bad at a subject that they should quit is definitely rude and out of line for pretty much anyone in a supervisory capacity, especially if their advice was unsolicited. That said, if someone asked for a fair evaluation, telling someone they might be more successful in another field isn't per se inappropriate.

It seems possible the TA was rude to her because of her gender. Anti-women bias in CS is well-known, books have been written on it. Unfortunately, we don't know right now whether this colored his actions. But, it does mean you should encourage her to report his actions in case he has been similarly rude to other students, but especially women.

As for what you should do, I recommend you help her and be supportive if she decides to make a complaint. However, you shouldn't make it for her. I say this for a few reasons, in decreasing order of importance:

  1. You've stated you didn't witness this exchange, so as it stands, this is an issue between your friend, her TA, and the professor. So all you have to go on is what she said. It sounds like we both believe her that the TA was very rude, but maybe there was a language barrier on either or both parts.

  2. You're not a professional advocate. You don't want to do something wrong and sink her case for her.

  3. It's my personal philosophy that it's not your place to try to take care of someone's grievance like this yourself.

  4. Unless she is committed to anonymity, the professor is likely to want to talk to her anyway. You can't answer all his questions as well as she can. But if you are willing, offer to come with her to the meeting with him for support.

  5. Gender affects every interaction we have. The possible gender issues only make this case more delicate. I would suggest any man to not try to "handle" this issue for a woman unbidden. (It doesn't sound like you are, but a note for other readers).

I would only go so far as to offer to pass on an anonymous letter that you put your weight behind, if she doesn't want to reveal her name to the professor. I would just stay away from putting her complaint into your words.

  • 13
    I am male, yes, and so is the TA in question. But I don't see how my being female would make "handling" this any different. I doubt my former student would be willing to talk to faculty about this, since her self-confidence has been quite damaged by this TA. I will not say anything without her approval, of course, but should I offer to?
    – ArnoldF
    Commented Jun 21, 2018 at 17:51
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    I think it is very important that you tell the supervisor that this kind of comment was made. You have no idea how many other people may also have on the receiving end or how many were of people who have been traditionally subjected to such comments or assumptions. If no one speaks up, then change will never happen. You can read the stories of many women who have been highly successful in CS and been subjected to this kind of thing. A TA is not in a position to do academic advising either. Recommend going to tutoring, that is appropriate. Making hurtful personal comments, no.
    – Elin
    Commented Jun 21, 2018 at 17:58
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    @ArnoldF I still wouldn't say it's your place to bring this up to the professor if you were a woman (or if you were both men), but in my opinion, men should avoid trying to solve women's problems for them. I feel like it happens too often that men feel women can't handle it (or the confrontation) and try to do it for them. I'm not accusing you of this, just a thought for you and future readers. But like I said, no matter the genders, my question stands, I just doubly advise you against it considering the gender dynamics. Commented Jun 21, 2018 at 17:58
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    @ArnoldF I suggest you clarify that a bit in your question. I would still suggest you tell her you'd be happy to help her fill out a complaint, or suggest to forward a letter from her "A student reached out to me and asked me to pass on her anonymous complaint to you, please see attached. I can vouch for the student's honesty." (for example). I would just avoid trying to put things in your words . Does that make sense? Commented Jun 21, 2018 at 18:53
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    I don't understand all this hand wringing over gender. A TA of any gender shouldn't be telling any student of any gender they're so bad they should quit. They should be making expectations clear and helping the student understand what to do to meet those expectations. Making this about gender bias when there is no indication of it will likely only perpetuate gender bias. Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 11:33

I think it is very important that you tell the supervisor that this kind of comment was made. You have no idea how many other people may also have on the receiving end or how many were of people who have been traditionally subjected to such comments or assumptions. If no one speaks up, then change will never happen. You can read the stories of many women who have been highly successful in CS and been subjected to this kind of thing.

A TA is not in a position to do academic or career advising either. A TA recommending going to tutoring for that specific course, that is appropriate. Making hurtful personal comments, no. Making aptitude and ability assessments, no. Even without the added issue of potentially being sexist, the comment is out of line and inappropriate and contrary to good pedagogy in CS (see).

How you tell the supervisor is a somewhat separate question. OP is a former staff member in the department; he may have a relationship with the chair or with a faculty member who could potentially be helpful.

Of course you should not mention the student's name without permission. As suggested by @Azor_Ahal OP could ask the student to do an anonymous statement if she is not comfortable sharing her name but stating that she is trustworthy. Depending on the department, I would suggest speaking with the immediate supervisor first, then potentially with the department chair especially if the supervisor seems dismissive. Alternatively, if there is someone in the department who you know has been an advocate for people from underrepresented groups OP could ask that person for advice about what to do.


IMO, graduate TAs are in a difficult position w.r.t. this. If they were an undergraduate TA, they're peers of undergraduate students and this could be understood as a peer's joke. It might not be entirely appropriate, but I doubt the average undergraduate will think too much into that. If they were a faculty member, it might be considered real advice, which might be more problematic; but most undergraduates will at least agree that a professor would be in a position to give them advice.

But graduate TAs pose a problem: they're neither junior enough to be considered peers, nor senior enough to be in a position to give advice. So, I'd say, although none of the three classes of people mentioned above should give such advice, graduate TAs REALLY should not do so.

I would say that the behavior is not appropriate, and the TA should receive some sensitive training. But then it should be the student's issue, and you should encourage them to talk to the instructor and/or the department chair. Tell them about their potential options. But don't escalate this issue yourself; you are not in a position to report this either (just as the TA was not in the position to say what they said). If the student wants to do something they would be grateful to you; if they decide not to do anything, it's up to them.

PS: I have been an undergraduate, TA, and (weirdly enough) a college-level course instructor, but never a grad TA. But nevertheless I'd like to put in my 50 cents.

  • 6
    I agree that this kind of advice is counterproductive at best. Having been a teaching assistant as both an undergraduate and a graduate student, it would never have occurred to me to give my opinion of a student's competence because I am not equipped to assess it. The job is to teach students, grade, and answer questions about homework assignments, and that's it.
    – ArnoldF
    Commented Jun 21, 2018 at 17:54
  • @ArnoldF Indeed; people should just do their job and not waste their time on giving unsolicited advice :-)
    – xuq01
    Commented Jun 21, 2018 at 18:02
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    I believe the average undergraduate whom I've known (in my 20 years as a CS professor at a women's college) would be seriously affected by even an undergraduate TA telling them they don't belong in the major. I think it's as inappropriate for an undergrad TA as a grad TA. Commented Jun 22, 2018 at 21:02
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    @EllenSpertus: I agree. A TA is in a position of relative authority, even if (s)he may not feel like (s)he is. A few years later the student may look back and realize that the TA was not much older/more senior than the student, but by then the damage will already have been done.
    – ruakh
    Commented Jun 22, 2018 at 22:05

A colleague of mine has a wonderful saying, which is "The F is the best counseling tool we have." It may sound harsh, but it's actually quite a good philosophy. If I have a student who is working hard but not succeeding, then my attitude is that I'm like the coach of a sports team that has weak players on it and is likely to lose every game that season. My job is not to discourage them, it's to work with them and try to help them succeed as well as possible. If the outcome at the end of the semester is that they fail, then that's a measure of their performance, and it's their privilege to decide whether that piece of data means they should change majors.

People have been drawing distinctions between faculty and TAs. I'm faculty, but I don't see that as directly relevant in this situation. At a school that has TAs, some of the grading may be done by a TA and some by the professor. The TA may actually have more contact with the student than the professor does, and therefore a clearer picture of the student's abilities. The grade at the end of the semester may reflect a combination of the TA's judgment and the professor's. All that really matters is that by the end, the TA and the prof have done their best to help a struggling student, and have also done their best to make sure that the letter on the transcript is an accurate measure of what the student learned.

  • I don't know about that philosophy. At least in my environment (large urban community college) it seems like most of the students don't have the meta-awareness to make that assessment from grades. Many (most?) can't read or compute percentages. A large proportion take remedial algebra 3-4-5-6-7 times. Some engineering students take calculus the same number of times without succeeding. One could argue that in the handholding-milieu of such a college, the institution has a responsibility to clearly advise in this regard. (?) Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 0:33
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    @DanielR.Collins: It sounds to me like your state has a problem that needs to be addressed by legislation. I teach at a community college in California, and the state legislature passed a sensible law in 2009 preventing students from repeating the same course more than three times. Students who aren't making progress also have lower registration priority at my school. Colleges will never turn away chronically unsuccessful students on their own initiative, because their funding is based on attendance.
    – user1482
    Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 12:31
  • It sounds like we agree that the "best counseling tool" theory may not be universally applicable (i.e., context-dependent). Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 14:10
  • The other thing is that a state can mandate that, and then institutions still dodge it, e.g.: (a) make a new course with different designation that satisfies the same prerequisite, (b) administratively waive the course requirement when a student hits the 3rd retry, etc. Actually, this suggests a very interesting question: granted colleges are administratively incited to never drop a student, whose responsibility is it to give honest advising? Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 18:20

Improper response from a TA: "You are bad and should consider another field".

Proper response from a TA. "You seem to be having a lot of problems here. How can I help?"

The TA, I'm sorry, is engaging in a kind of abuse that should not be tolerated. I suspect that in some places it is illegal. There are a lot of power/gender issues that might be involved in this, but even in their absence, no TA, and in fact, no Professor, should make statements like that if you have reported it accurately.

A professor might counsel a student by exploring the student's goals in comparison with the performance, but not the "perceived" ability. However, a judgement made and delivered is not the proper role of a Teaching Assistant. The person is undermining the work of the professor as well as the student. If a TA has concerns, they should be expressed to the professor in the course, not the student. Of course, lobbying for a student's failure is also improper.

If you are an academic yourself, or want to be, then justice should be one of your first concerns. The student is being abused.

While the above is harsh, intentionally so, the solution need not be.

The TA needs an education into (in this case) his proper role. You may not be able to provide that, but you might be able to initiate some change. You may not need to "rat out" the TA to the professor, but you could, perhaps, indicate to the prof that the student needs more positive reinforcement than (in this case) she is getting. You could give your own assessment as to her history and ability to work hard and get the job done. If you are asked to say more, use your own judgement about what to say. As you indicate you are friends with the advisor, it may give you more freedom to speak to the broader issues.

It may even be that the TA has an improper view of the student due to some unfortunate sequence of events that has resulted in improper generalization. Every student stumbles occasionally (most, anyway), and if that is visible, then an inexperienced viewer may read too much into what they perceive but that may not be generally true. You may need to be sensitive to this and you are likely wise to not think of the TA as a monster.

Another possible issue that may not involve gender or power is that the TA is likely extremely busy with his own education and may also have little training in how to deal with educational issues. That is not to excuse the behavior, but to recognize that the solution to the problem may require more than a quick fix. A good professor should spend time training his/her TAs in the finer points of student interactions, though that, again, may be a pipe dream.

Finally, another complicating factor, is that the TA, is just inexperienced in explaining things, having only one way to understand/explain it himself. The student asks a question. The TA gives an answer. The student says she doesn't understand. The TA gives exactly the same answer in the same or nearly the same words. This isn't helpful as any experienced teacher knows. But this, again, is something that the Professor, guiding TAs needs work on. Too many Assistant Professors, actually, have this same problem. Things are easy for them, since they just spent years learning it and are good at it. They don't yet have the experience to know that any explanation, no matter how fine, only reaches a portion of the students who hear/see it. Education isn't transcription and requires repetition as well as looking at things in different ways.

Finally, if you are unable to provide her continuing support and encouragement, you might be able to connect her to a group of other students (or help her form one). Study groups are common in many places and can be confidence builders.

Of course, if you believe it to be a form of harassment, not just abuse, you have a responsibility to deal with that, as well.

  • I really like the idea of looking for/forming a study group. Helps with the subject matter issues and the self-confidence issue. Great suggestion.
    – user74312
    Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 3:50

Short answers first, explanations follow:

  • No, a grad student TA, or any TA, should not be telling a student to leave a major.

  • No, it is not, nor should it be, generally acceptable conduct for TAs.

  • No, you should not let the professor know. (A friendly word to your friend, the adviser, is in order.)

Clearing the air just a bit, in light of existing answers and comments.

  • It is, sadly so, possible that there was a sexist bias involved in the TA's behavior. Addressing that, however, would be assuming facts not in evidence, and should be left to the proper personnel, should anything else be done about it. I am not dismissing the existence of such biases, nor discounting that it might have been a factor in the reported incident. I am only stating that if that is the case, it should be dealt with by the proper people when, and if, the incident itself is addressed.

  • The degree of experience, or time in the position as TA, and the differential between the TA and the student in subject matter, or academics in general, has no relevance. Only that the actor is a TA and not a professor or academic adviser has bearing.

  • The respective genders, or other "protected class" status does not matter to this answer. Even if it were a cat and a dog, the answer, and recommendations, remain the same, and stand on their own.

Exactly what a TA is expected to do, and is in fact "authorized" to do, will vary between institutions, departments, professors, and even individual TAs themselves. The title of the position itself gives a good beginning into delineating the TA's purview. A Teaching Assistant is an assistant. The TA is not a substitute for the professor, nor a replacement for mentors, advisers, or any other staff position. They assist the professor they are assigned to, in what ever manner the professor has instructed them. The student's perspective of the TA is as an agent of the professor, including the expectation that the TA's statements of progress are valid, and supported by the professor.

It is acceptable for a TA to grade papers. Doing such is a process of evaluating, or assessing, the work - on a single assignment - against the expectations for that assignment. The professor, when assigning such work to a TA, has deemed that TA's ability to make the same assessments on that assignment as they would themselves. There may be other assignments which the professor lacks such confidence, and does not have the TA review, or where the TA's work is reviewed prior to issuing the final grade for that assignment. The TA can be qualified to determine that a word is spelled correctly while not being qualified to determine if the usage of the word is appropriate. If a TA were to begin grading papers which the professor had not assigned to them, the TA would be out of line, even though they do grade other papers.

Commonly a TA will have a deeper relationship with the students than their professor. The TAs work with the students more often, spend more time in one-on-one interactions, and see some of the progress, and difficulties, which the professor may not. In that light, it seems appropriate for a TA to raise concerns they might have about a student with their professor. It is not appropriate, however, for the TA to advise the student on course, or major, selection. If the TA and the student have developed a good rapport, and the student asks the TA directly for their opinion on the choice of major, then it is inappropriate for the TA to advise the student on course, or major, selection. (Yes, that is redundant. Intentionally so.) Professors, when they think they have enough knowledge about the student, and the student's progress and prior performance might offer such advice. That, however, is not the question here. Were I to find myself as a professor with a TA who did offer such advice, I would be looking for a new TA, even if the same TA had been working for me a dozen years.

What you can, or should, do with the knowledge you now have is offer to help the student address the incident through the proper channels. There are probably two avenues available: the professor and some "office" at the institution. As you know someone there, and have been there yourself, you should either already know which office to contact, or can find out from your friend who still is there. My preference would be to address the issue with the professor first, and escalate it with the proper office if the professor does not deal with it to the student's satisfaction. Although it is possible that the professor may suggest the alternative as well.

As you already know the student, and she apparently values your input, you should take the time to counter the negative impact of the TA's actions. Whether or not the TA's evaluation is correct doesn't matter in this regard. You can restore her self-confidence to the point where she is willing to talk to faculty about it, and offer to help with introductions, if possible and appropriate to the current institutional setting.

In addition to helping her address the situation, you can also contact your friend who is still working there. Without naming the student you can notify that adviser that the TA is making such statements to students. It may have been said jokingly, or in a moment of intense frustration. Such information might be considered by the faculty addressing the incident. Neither case, however, justifies, or excuses, the TA's statement. Informing your friend is not to help the student, which is why you don't give her name, rather it is to prevent future incidents with that TA's interactions with students, the one you know and the rest that you don't know.

See also the excellent answer here from Buffy, who has the experience to speak authoritatively to the issue.

  • If I remember correctly (possible, but not assured) way back in my TA days I worked on very large multi-section classes with many TAs. We graded finals in a "boiler room" situation - everyone sitting together - working until all were finished. I don't think we were permitted to grade the finals of the sections/students that we TAd for.
    – Buffy
    Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 11:06

In my modest opinion, it is irrelevant who is male or female, or what the department's goals of diversity are. The purpose of an university should be to impart knowledge on students. If the TA was a girl saying this to a guy, the problem would be the exact same, as would be my advice.

The TA was out of line in this matter.
I've tutored younger students myself when I was a student. One was capable, and behind. I devoted more time to her than I needed, and she succeeded. After half a year I stopped tutoring her, and by that time she didn't need itanymore.
I've also tutored a guy who just wasn't smart enough for the course. What I did was just try and try again to explain the basics of mathematics that he didn't understood. I never told him he wasn't smart enough - that's the job of his mentor, if the mentor deems it appropriate. When his mentor asked for my opinion though, I was honest. But that's in private, without the student present.
This is, as far as i'm aware, how a TA should behave.

Now what can you do ? To the girl, contest the TA's opinion. Remind her that she was behind before, and with dedication and hard work she caught up with everyone. Even if it's not strictly true, tell her that she almost didn't need you. In any scientific field where experimentation and formula's are important, hard work will always be the most important qualifier, closely followed with being interested in the subject. Talent is 3rd at best.

Aside from providing her positive reinforcement, you can advice her to tell the professor. Perhaps that TA should be reassigned, or get a stern talking to from the higher ups. If he just isn't aware of how potentially damaging it could be what he said, it's a learning opportunity, and otherwise, it's the first step to removing the obstacle that he is for the girl and other students.

You can tell the girl you'll vouch for her when asked, but in the end, she's the one making the complaint. And yes, an official complaint is warranted.

  • 5
    I agree that in a vacuum the gender dynamics shouldn't play a role here. Unfortunately, given the disproportionate number of similar stories from female colleagues I hear relative to male ones, it's hard to discount the idea of some bias on the part of the TA. I'm specifically not calling him a monster/sexist/etc. He might well have been totally sincere, but informed by some wrongheaded generalizations he was taught early on.
    – ArnoldF
    Commented Jun 22, 2018 at 15:48
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    It's not very polite to call a college student a "girl." They are adults. Commented Jun 22, 2018 at 20:28
  • @AzorAhai - did I miss some major change in the English language where girl came to mean a child?
    – Davor
    Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 23:25
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    @davor Nope, it's been like that for a while... Commented Jun 24, 2018 at 2:49
  • Not the English i'm used to, then. My apologies if you think it impolite. I assure you no harm was intended. As for the possible sexism, from your post it didn't seem obvious to me, although if he used derogatory terms you left out of the question, then it might be obvious to you. My rule of thumb in these cases: Do not assume bad intentions when stupid/rude suffices.
    – Gloweye
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 6:39

I disagree with the answer provided here by Elin (though I appreciate her views), so let me offer a contrary view. Exceptional cases aside, a graduate-student is competent to tutor undergraduates in their field, and is competent to offer a view on the ability of a student in the field they are tutoring. It is erroneous to suggest that assessment of a student’s ability during the course of tutoring is merely an “assumption”, or that a TA is not in a position to make assessments of aptitude and ability in a subject. Arguably a TA might even be in a better position to assess the abilities of a first-year student than a professor, since the TA is closer to the level of the student, and can better remember the progression through those years of study.

So the issue here is that the feedback was unsolicited, and was very negative and discouraging. This can sometimes occur in the context of a TA who is frustrated trying to explain material to a weak student. I can certainly imagine a TA becoming so frustrated trying to explain simple material that this leads to a negative comment on the student’s abilities. Personally, I try to err on the side of being as encouraging as possible, and I wouldn’t put things this way. Depending on the full context, maybe this was bad teaching, and maybe the TA’s assessment was overly harsh (or maybe his assessment is right on the money). At worst it is a bad reaction to teaching, but I don’t consider it scandalous. Students at university are adults, and they should be able to bear exposure to a range of assessments of their competence, from the optimistic and encouraging, to the pessimistic and discouraging.

One thing to consider here is that academic instructors have a duty to their students to give candid assessment of their abilities and their work. That needs to be done relative to expected competence at different year levels, and as an undergraduate, the expectation is low. Students devote significant time and money to their studies, and merely being at university is to some extend to solicit feedback on your abilities (even if this hurts sometimes). We do no favours to weak students by misleading them about their abilities and their prospects for success in difficult academic fields. Particularly when dealing with very weak students, there is a fine line between trying to inspire and encourage struggling students, and misleading them about their prospects for future success in a field where they are showing low ability. In this particular case, it is notable that the OP also describes this student as having struggled and required attention to perform better in his course.

Obviously none of the commentators here are in a position to make a judgment on this student’s abilities, other than to acknowledge what the OP has described. We have two TAs who have formed the opinion that this student is at the weak end of the spectrum; one assessment being that she is of such low ability that she should not be in that field. Maybe that assessment is right, and maybe it is wrong. My advice to the student would be to take on board all feedback, but take the opinions of a single outlying individual with a grain of salt (particularly if that opinion was expressed in a context of frustration). She should not be put off studying this field by one negative assessment of her competence, particularly if this is contrary to feedback she is receiving from other instructors. At the same time, she should be realistic, and should treat this TA’s remarks as data, and be aware that she is probably on the low end of competency for her cohort, at this stage. If she continues to struggle, and continues to attract negative assessments of her abilities, from multiple different instructors, she might want to rethink about whether this is really the right field for her.

The issue of sex/race/minorities, etc.: As far as I am concerned, it is utterly irrelevant that the TA is male and the student is female. The propriety of his conduct stands or falls on its own merits. The fact that the department wants to be “inclusive to women and underrepresented minorities” does not entail that there is any duty to soften competency assessments for those groups. If this conduct was wrong, then it was wrong regardless of the fact that the student is female.

An additional point (update): To those in the comments suggesting that a TA should not make judgments on the ability of a student, a simple question. Do you support the practice of allowing graduate students who are TAs mark assessments for the courses they teach? I have observed this to be an extremely common practice at universities, so clearly, we do in fact recruit TAs to make judgments on the abilities of the students, through their observed work.

Edit: I initially wrote that the student here was in her first year; that was based on misreading the OP, who actually said that the TA is in the first year of the graduate degree (and has advised below that the student is in her third year). This means that there is a much narrower gap between the student and TA, which means that the TA's opinion on the student counts for less than if the student was in her first year.

  • 1
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. As far as I can tell, many comments have been addressed by edits to the answer. If you want to further continue the existing debate, do this in chat. Further comments in this direction will be deleted without warning. If you have specific suggestions how to improve this answer, post a comment. If you want to offer a contrasting opinion, post an answer.
    – Wrzlprmft
    Commented Jun 24, 2018 at 7:17

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