8

I am to form my dissertation committee in the coming weeks and, aside from the required members, I have the option of including an external member not affiliated with my university. I must emphasize that this is not a requirement.

I have a collaborator (thus someone closely familiar with some of the work that will be in this dissertation) who is a junior faculty member at another university whom I could ask. My advisor suggests that I should consider her. However, I do not know if there are particular benefits of having an external member in the first place.

The cause for my uncertainty is that even though we have a good working relationship, I am not sure if she would be "in my corner" (for reasons I would rather not disclose). As such, dissertation committees are generally quite supportive in my program and I have no reason to be concerned about picking a lion as one of the commentators in a related question suggests

I could potentially see this being somewhat helpful to the junior faculty member as it is my understanding that committee/service work is a requisite part of the tenure process, but I don't suppose it will have a huge impact on her career either way. On the other hand, one small downside that I can foresee is managing the logistics and getting an extra person to agree on the meeting time(s).

Still, what are the benefits of having an external member on my dissertation committee if I am not required to have one, and the rest of the committee is already generally supportive?

12
  • 4
    My experience is that students don’t pick their committees. It can vary of course.
    – Buffy
    Commented Aug 12 at 21:40
  • 4
    No, I have to choose the committee members but it is at the discretion of the thesis director and the program director. This seems to be a common arrangement in many programs as far as I am aware. I hadn't heard otherwise, but the alternative also sounds plausible. Commented Aug 12 at 21:42
  • 2
    For some projects -- yes, there is a clear benefit to having an external member (e.g. your project is to optimise the design of Acme Widgets and the external member is the technical director of the Acme Widget Company). For other projects it would just be another cat that you will have to try and herd. I'm not sure this question has a useful general answer.
    – avid
    Commented Aug 12 at 21:46
  • 2
    "My advisor suggests that I should consider her. However, I do not know if there are particular benefits of having an external member in the first place." Your question seems like a bit of a non-sequitur to me. Yes, she is an external member, but presumably the reason why your advisor proposed to ask her is that she is "closely familiar with some of the work that will be in this dissertation". So really the question you should be asking is: what is the benefit of having a committee member who is closely familiar with some of the work? Commented Aug 12 at 21:51
  • 3
    Ask yourself why your advisor suggest including her. Is it to better support you or do they have some other reason that benefits them. I don't suggest this is happening, but the question should be considered.
    – Buffy
    Commented Aug 12 at 21:59

4 Answers 4

4

As you note there are advantages to the external examiner for such service, but you shouldn't consider that here. You should choose people whose questions you are highly likely to be able to answer and an external person is a wild card in some cases. I have added a horror story, possibly apocryphal, at the end. There are probably many others.

Before you choose anyone think about what they might ask and get advice on their participation from someone like your advisor. Your advisor has history with many of the potential examiners and this can be very helpful.

You want your work to be as good as possible, of course, and lots of feedback on it from people with different viewpoints is valuable for that, but at the point of the defense you should be beyond all that. You don't want to put yourself in an uncomfortable position at this point in time.

You express some doubts about this person. That would worry me.

I'm assuming here that the external examiner is in the same field. In some places there is a required external examiner and must be from a different field. That makes things even riskier.

One advantage that could accrue to you from including an external person is in building a circle of future collaborators and contacts. That assumes some things about the characteristics of that examiner such as the breadth of their own circle and their place in the field.

Horror story. A chemistry student was required to have an external examiner from a different field. The examiner was from history or language or some such. At the end of the presentation they were asked if they had any questions. They replied "I notice that you used the term Ph frequently in your presentation. That isn't something I know about. Could you explain it simply?"

The student couldn't give an answer suitable to the other chemists on the committee, since it was so long ago that they studied Ph explicitly and it had become part of the background. The student failed. I hope this was apocryphal.

5
  • Thanks, I do have some doubts about the potential external member. Commented Aug 12 at 21:58
  • Would love to hear the horror story, if it's not too inconvenient for you to describe :) Commented Aug 12 at 21:59
  • 3
    You may need to discuss those reservations with your advisor.
    – Buffy
    Commented Aug 12 at 22:09
  • 6
    I learned about pH 20 years ago in high school and I still remember the definition, I am a computer scientist. Not getting this roughly described for a chemist is embarrassing.
    – usr1234567
    Commented Aug 13 at 8:05
  • I've never heard of an external examiner having to be as far away as history and chemistry - that's kind of awful. Commented Aug 13 at 19:36
6

Looking at the other answers, this is clearly a question where academia varies more than you think.

My answer will therefore be prefaced with a long explanation of how things work in the culture of my academia.

PhD defense in physics in France

The formal procedure for a physics PhD defense in France (and I suspect the vast majority of STEM defenses) is:

  • the PhD advisor must sign on the PhD manuscript and the choice of examiners. In most cases the advisor chooses the jury.
  • the PhD student must send their PhD manuscript to two referees (a subset of the examiners) well in advance of the planned defense date. (In my case, two months.)
  • Referees must send a preliminary report well in advance as well. (In my case, one month.) This report contains evaluation of the work quality, but it is not a binding recommendation. Only the full PhD committee may choose to award or not award the degree.
  • The manuscript and preliminary reports are shared with the whole committee. Assuming the paperwork is in order, the defense takes place on the planned date.
  • You present your work, after which every committee member gets a chance to ask questions.
  • You leave the room and the committee deliberates. Your PhD advisor(s) may or may not be asked to leave as well (formally, the committee chair chooses).
  • You come back and the chair announces the committee’s decision. It can grant the PhD, or not grant it, or grant it under the condition that certain modifications be made to the manuscript; that decision is written down in a formal report about the defense.

What actually happens is:

  • your PhD advisor, by signing on the manuscript, is staking her professional reputation on the quality of the PhD.
    • your manuscript/work may be poor, but still enough to graduate. If so, your advisor will usually call the jury members and apologize. If it is on the verge of failing, your advisor may play on personal favors. This should not happen, but it does - sometimes, "have the student work a couple more months to pass" is not on the table, so the unpleasant choice is "let them drop out" or "push them barely through graduation". The latter option is better for the advisor than the former.
  • if a referee thinks the manuscript/work is too bad to justify a PhD, they wil not write the preliminary report; they will contact your advisor, and try to get them to withdraw the defense. Your advisor may try to push back (see above) or they may not. If they decide to cancel the defense, that decision will be made without your input. You might formally get to choose between "go to the defense against the wishes of my advisor and at least one committee member" and "cancel the defense", but that is not really a choice, is it?
  • the referee report will usually be a detailed critique of the work, and contain questions that will be asked during the defense (maybe not verbatim, but it is good preparation anyway). Or it might be useless to prepare for the defense (if the referee is late writing it, or if they think it’s red tape anyway, etc.), but that reflects badly on the referee rather than the PhD student.
  • by the time you are standing in front of the committee, you have already passed.... The success rate of PhD defenses is well above 99% (because you will be asked to withdraw before the defense if there are doubts, see above). If the committee grants the PhD under condition, the manuscript modifications will almost never exceed one or two days’ work.
  • ...but it does not mean there are no stakes: The quality of your defense will influence the examiners’ opinion of you as a potential collaborator, postdoc, or fellow scientist; they will remember it when examining an application for a job opening or a grant. Even without this direct impact on the examiners, the defense report will be an important piece of information when you apply to junior researcher positions. A bad defense will get you a PhD, but it can tank your career.

In my field it was customary to have lunch (or dinner) with the new PhD and their committee after the defense, but I suspect this is very specific to the field or university.

Questions during the defense

After an initial 45 min presentation, the examiners will ask questions. The duration of such question time varies quite a bit, but I would say it is between 1 and 2 hours at least 80% of the time.

The president will give the floor to each (other) examiner to ask questions. Referees will start and ask the majority of questions. (In my case, the first referee had the floor for about 50 minutes, the second for 20-25; all other four non-advisor examiners combined lasted less than 20 minutes.) Advisors go last and (hopefully) ask no questions (but may make a small speech about how happy they were to have you as a PhD student, the work you made, etc.). The audience is allowed to ask questions after that (but the median amount of questions from the audience is zero).

As said above, the process is "non-adversarial" inasmuch as you are going to pass, but examiners will still ask probing questions for various reasons:

  • they are interested in opening a scientific discussion (which may or may not end up with an answer to the original question, but will be interesting nonetheless)
  • they have a fairly short-term interest in the answer: e.g. one of their PhD students has some issues with the same experimental apparatus
  • they think the question is hard (or even impossible to answer), but they ask it anyway on the off chance that you (with your expertise in the subject) will find it easy / will have spent two weeks on it and have an answer ready
  • they think the question is easy, because they have less familiarity than you with the problem (explaining why the question is hard is a good answer)
  • they want to "test your mettle" (see: "opinion of you as a potential collaborator, postdoc, or fellow scientist")
  • they want to show (to you? the audience? themselves?) that a defense is serious business (even if everyone knows the degree will be awarded at the end)
  • they view the defense as a rite of passage and see hard questions as part of the ritual (if this sounds like hazing, that is because it is)
  • they like exercizing their power at the expense of junior researchers, and asking tough questions is a socially-acceptable way to do so

(Not all of those are good reasons, but they are reasons.)

Notice that "check if the student knows his coursebook" is absent. A defense is not an examination in the usual sense; the examinee knows more about the subject that the examiners. If (as Buffy’s horror story has it) you are asked about something that would be taught in an undergraduate class, the most likely hypothesis is that you made a typo in a formula somewhere; the second most likely hypothesis is that the examiner is going to teach this class next year and they want to see how you would present the topic. (It happened to me - the examiner used slightly different hypotheses as I did for a certain calculation, and wanted to see how it affected the results.)

Another anecdote from my own defense about reason #3: another examiner asked a question that clearly would have required tons of work to answer (and I had not even started any of this work, nor implied anywhere in my manuscript than I had). I gave a diplomatic answer ("One would need to perform experiments X, Y and Z to know this") during the defense, but asked about the question in the post-defense lunch. He said "yeah, I agree, it seems like a couple of years work - which is why I asked you, because I hoped you might have a shortcut".

Finally, hard questions can be the sign of a defense going well! If I think your work is shoddy and uninteresting, I might cook up one or two basic questions to save face (having an examiner ask no questions is a bad look). If I am deeply interested in what you did and foresee multiple extensions, or I expect some of my own research to intersect with it, I am going to ask deep questions - the world-leading expert on the subject is right there, I would be foolish not to ask now.

External examiners

I neglected to mention rules about jury composition so far. There are lots of them, but for the sake of this question the most important is this: the jury must include at least half of external members. The definition of "external" varies across the country, but typically it would be: not in the same university and no co-authored papers with the PhD student.

The forced inclusion of external members is a conflict-of-interest rule. An examiner from the same research group as your advisor might feel obliged to let a student graduate with shoddy work, because it is politically easier than picking a fight with a close colleague. An examiner from the other side of the country will feel less pressure.

Another advantage of external examiners is exposure. A PhD defense is a research seminar where you have an usually long presentation slot, a very deep understanding of the material and lots of preparation time, plus a better-than-usual chance to chat with the audience afterwards. That is literally the best moment to shine of your entire research career. Why would you use it with a bunch of department faculty who have seen you five times in the department seminar anyway?

In the context of a largely non-adversarial defense, internal examiners are chosen for convenience - they do not have to take the train and they have more social pressure to be on their colleague’s committee. (Some researchers enjoy thesis defenses, some find it a chore, some have mixed feelings; but filling a committee is usually a pain so it is easier to do with people you know closely.)

The question at hand

(Finally!)

The aforementioned advantages are, in my opinion, compelling arguments to include her. In addition, whatever personal animosity exists between you would probably be exacerbated by "snubbing" her if she is a natural fit for your jury.

The potential downsides are in my view rather weak:

  • she might sway the jury into failing you - only possible if your work is on the shoddy side, which your advisor should realize, and they would not be letting you pick your committee if that was the case
  • she might ask genuine questions that expose weaknesses of your work. Well, that is the job of any examiner. Furthermore, having her ask those questions out in the open gives you an opportunity to answer, which you would not have if she just gave her offhand opinion to a colleague during a coffee break.
  • she might ask aggressive questions to derail the defense. This will reflect badly on her, not you (assuming you stay calm etc. - but that could come from any examiner).

Final warning

I must reiterate that this answer comes from the perspective of a culture where the vibe of a PhD defense is "extended seminar talk" rather than "actual school exam with the possibility of failure".

3
  • 1
    I'm not sure exactly how relevant this answer is to the original question, but thank you for the thorough description of how defenses work in France. One question: was the defense conducted in French? Commented Aug 13 at 17:32
  • @AlexanderWoo I agree the starting description is rather long, but I saw no other way to show the cultural context / incentives that lead to my conclusion. Hopefully the OP has some idea of their cultural context, to apply my conclusion if the premises are similar, or disregard it if not. The alternative is an answer along the lines of "in Southern Bushingam woods, we do it this way", which a reader from Northern Bushingam woods cannot use.
    – UJM
    Commented Aug 14 at 8:20
  • My defense was in French. (The government is strongly pushing for this, you only get to write the manuscript / have the defense in English if an examiner does not speak French, and it is an administrative hassle.) However, I attended two defenses in English (with respectively one German and one US examiner) and I saw no deviation from the pattern I indicate - but maybe those examiners had been "coached" to act in the French manner.
    – UJM
    Commented Aug 14 at 8:21
5

My Ph.D. program actually required we have an "external" committee member, although "external" was defined as "not a member of your home department" rather than "entirely outside the university."

The reasoning behind this requirement was two-fold:

  1. Provide an outside perspective from someone who is likely less familiar with the student than faculty belonging to their department, to ensure that personal biases (both positive and negative) on the part of the "internal" committee members don't unduly influence the outcome of the defense.
  2. Provide an outside perspective to improve the thesis research. This is probably why your professor was suggesting you consider your collaborator. It can be highly beneficial to a student to have a second person who is also an expert in the field to consult with on their thesis project - they will probably have a different perspective, educational experience, and background than your advisor, and so will likely have different ideas of experiments to conduct, ways to analyze data, etc. They will also be able to judge the merits (and faults!) of your research/thesis defense better than someone without their expertise.

In your case, you will need to weigh the potential benefit of having this person's expertise against their potential to "be a lion." It seems as though you at least have contact/have worked with this person before, so it may work out better for you (since you sound like you don't actually want them on your committee) to pick someone else for your committee and ask the previous collaborator for feedback/advice, if they are amenable to giving it.

2

The main advantage of an external member is that they bring a perspective from a different institution or field than those in your Department. This advantage is lessened if the external member is quite junior, so I'm not sure it will be a big advantage here. If you also have reason to believe that this person would not be in your corner then she does not sound like a good choice to me.

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .