Timeline for Is it considered normal to refuse Feedback after rejection on academic positions in EU public funded positions?
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21 events
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| Jun 7, 2016 at 9:32 | comment | added | PsySp | @TobiasKildetoft I think that is basically the reason of "misunderstanding" thus the question. It was certainly the first time that such info was disclosed, something that was very different from my experiences so far. This together with the encouragement from my references to try to get any info, if possible, led to that situation. I wanted to know what is the norm. It seems that my few previous experiences were the exception and not the rule. At the same time, It would be nice to know what info can in principle be legally obtained (I would definitely not go to extreme measures). | |
| Jun 7, 2016 at 8:33 | comment | added | Tobias Kildetoft | @PeteL.Clark While it is certainly not the norm that people end up rejected from only a few positions, it must happen for at least a few (if nothing else because occasionally there will be an "off-season" posting that someone gets even though it is the first place they apply), and questions about this sort of thing is more likely to come precisely from someone with less experience from rejections (as a comparison, I only got rejected from 3 or 4 positions before getting my current one, so low numbers do happen even in math). | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 22:57 | comment | added | PsySp | @Yemon Choi Maybe my tone seems demanding but in all honesty it is not. I am sorry if my tone failed to communicate my message. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 22:51 | comment | added | PsySp | @Yemon Choi Probably my expectations, based on my experiences so far, are wrong. Thus the question, because I wanted to clarify in my head what is normal and what is not. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked. I tried to analyse why I had the attitude. I would never have this attitude for any academic job but I thought that more appropriate criteria should apply in this particular case. I did not want to put CERN and any other academic job in the same bag. Probably that's false, and I should have treated it as everything else. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 22:47 | comment | added | Yemon Choi | @PsySp In short: please don't make this into a USA vs non-USA issue. I have worked in both North America and the UK and am aware of some differences. This, in my view is not one of them, and -- let me completely blunt -- I find the sense of entitlement in your whole post quite striking, regardless of whether you were fairly or unfairly treated by those to whom you applied. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 22:44 | comment | added | Yemon Choi | @PsySp Speaking as someone trained in the UK system, who now works in the UK system, and who knows people working in the European academic system (in mathematics) I would like to say that your comments "I hope all of the people posted here (I guess primarily from the US) understand that for us, Europeans, it's somewhat "shocking" such a behaviour" are extremely presumptuous. I have refrained from commenting on your post, but can only say that even when I was seeking my first permanent job I did not share your attitude nor your expectations | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 21:19 | comment | added | PsySp | @DanRomik. I have no experience about US public administration, besides the comments received here and have no reason to believe that something is not ethical. Everybody seemed to judge the situation based on what happens in US, but this might not be the correct approach since CERN is based in Europe. Anyway, I agree with all your comments (and I thank you for them) I just try to make my case from my point of view and my current experiences. In any case my statement ""much more sensitive.." is a crude exaggeration and I retract it. I apologise! | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 21:14 | comment | added | Dan Romik | @PsySp you have a right to be shocked, but empirically CERN's recruitment policies are similar to what we see in the US, not to what you imagine should happen in Europe. Respectfully, even considering DanFox's comments I stand by my opinion that you are quite misguided about your belief that you deserve to get feedback. Your statement "We are much more sensitive in public administration issues" is also patently false, for many reasons I have no room to discuss. Administration in US academia is generally very ethical and well-functioning, certainly at least as much as in Europe. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 21:01 | comment | added | Captain Emacs | @DanRomik Great response. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 20:30 | comment | added | PsySp | @DanFox. I hope all of the people posted here (I guess primarily from the US) understand that for us, Europeans, it's somewhat "shocking" such a behaviour, especially when it comes from a public institution like CERN. We are much more sensitive in public administration issues. Anyway, unfortunately it seems that nothing is going to change. People suggest "deal with it", "it's how it is" and CERN can continue their unreasonable and arbitrary (to me) practices of hiring that are the opposite of meritocracy. Caesar's wife must be above suspicion. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 18:20 | comment | added | Dan Fox | @PsySp: That was what I imagined was the situation. Many of those posting here seem insufficiently aware of the radical differences in mentality underlying academic systems in different countries. Many of the practices regarded as normal in the US are considered problematic in other countries, the use of recommendation letters being a prime example. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 8:38 | comment | added | PsySp | @Pete L. Clark What can I say. I was finishing my 1st PostDoc and was looking for the next career step, thus my applications. After the CERN rejection I, thankfully, was offered another PostDoc appointment, which I took without hesitation. At a side note, not to my surprise, my 2nd appointment was much more transparent than the CERN one. Still, nobody knows what are the criteria of CERN and why they refuse access to information that should be otherwise publicly available. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 8:30 | comment | added | PsySp | @DanFox: that was exactly my point! This was what I expected and asked for and what I did NOT get (not even mildly). Thus my question. People judged my question based, mostly, on the US system of admission. | |
| Jun 6, 2016 at 7:55 | comment | added | Dan Fox | The situation outside the US might be quite different. In Spain, for instance, all academic positions are awarded after a formally appointed commission scores the applications according to purportedly objective criteria. In most cases who the candidates are is published officially, the candidate rankings and scores are published, and the candidate evaluations are usually available upon formal request or formal protest. Similar systems are in place in much of Europe. Someone coming from such a system could find a typical US job application process opaque. | |
| Jun 5, 2016 at 17:23 | comment | added | Pete L. Clark | @PsySp: Based on what you write, you currently hold a postdoc position and are/were applying for another one...and you have only been rejected from one other postdoc position? I am flabbergasted by this. In my experience, people apply for postdocs 20-100 or so at a time...of course because there is such a high rejection rate. Have you really not applied for any other postdocs at public institutions? | |
| Jun 4, 2016 at 22:19 | comment | added | PsySp | Thank you for your message. I would also like to add that prior my CERN application, I was probably "spoiled" in the sense that I was rejected by 1 PostDoc positions and 2 industry ones (both as research scientists on big corporations as Yahoo) and in all these 3 cases I have received actual feedback on why my application was unsuccessful, which actually helped me in my future steps. I was wrongly expecting something similar from a public institution, and this "magnified" my surprise on their behaviour | |
| Jun 4, 2016 at 22:10 | comment | added | Dan Romik | @PsySp I understand. You did nothing wrong by asking for feedback, and as I said you have nothing to feel embarrassed about. You are in the same boat as (probably) hundreds of applicants, many of whom are like you very hardworking and talented. Anyway, glad you found my answer useful, and congrats on the position you ended up getting. | |
| Jun 4, 2016 at 22:02 | comment | added | PsySp | Thank you for the very helpful comment. Technically, you are of course 100% right. A few points: I was in fact encouraged by my references to ask for any potential feedback. I did not want to challenge any decision (in the meantime I was offered a very good position). Just I was very surprised to receive, what I perceive, arbitrary answers for a job without clearly defined criteria, that my file "seemed" appropriate according to the high level description of the job. I sincerely put a lot of effort for that application and I -wrongly- thought I deserved a bit of an answer. | |
| Jun 4, 2016 at 21:58 | vote | accept | PsySp | ||
| Jun 4, 2016 at 21:43 | history | edited | Dan Romik | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 11 characters in body
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| Jun 4, 2016 at 21:37 | history | answered | Dan Romik | CC BY-SA 3.0 |